I read about how this interview was a complete massacre, but I didn’t know how weak the Catholic arguments really were. Did they want to lose? My favorite part of the videos is when Stephen Fry lambastes the Church for washing away their culpability in condoning slavery. If they were supposed to be such moral saviors, why are they just as wrong as everyone else?
Check out all the videos after the jump!
(props to RDF for the find)
November 9th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Is that the best the Catholic Church has? I know it’s a hard stance to argue but it seems like they could find somebody a little more persuasive.
November 9th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Thank you for posting these videos. I found them very thought-provoking. I am Catholic and I too am disgusted over the atrocities committed by members of the clergy. Have the church’s apologies been sufficient? I suppose history will be the judge of that.
All I can say is what Miss Whitcomb said: the church is its members, not just the clergy. No one in my family or circle of Catholics abuses or condones the abuse of children. I have known hundreds of priests and nuns through the years, and not a single one was involved in this scandal.
As for the inquisitions, crusades, etc, what can I say. I didn’t do that stuff nor did any of the priests and nuns in this day and age who are indeed trying to make the world a more loving and peaceful place. Obviously the church made some big mistakes, but everyone who made those mistakes are dead and gone. The Pope apologized for them. Time to move on.
Chris Hitchens is an extremely intelligent and eloquent individual as is Mr. Fry. It’s hard to argue with a lot of their points. BUT the majority of their arguments are based on past events, not present ones. Without the errors of the past, they wouldn’t have much to stand on. Hence I think the church’s PRESENT DAY record speaks for itself and it is indeed a force for good in the world.
November 9th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Past events?! When did the pope reverse the offical catholic opinion on contraception? When did the vatican decide to relieve as much suffering as it’s caused by sharing some of it’s hideous wealth with those that need it? Besides all that, how is blind faith in the supernatural making a positive difference? The catholic church is still homophobic, misogynist and as fearful of scientific progress as Ann Widdicombe is of a toothbrush.
November 9th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
@Mark:
the past IS interesting, because how else would you measure a institution that’s around for quite some years?
“Obviously the church made some big mistakes, but everyone who made those mistakes are dead and gone”
Hitler is dead, can we therefore support Nazism simpatisant organisations (asumed the do ‘good’ work)?
November 9th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
As usual, i enjoyed Hitchens speaking, i also really liked Fry. It’s not the best talk i’ve heard (I don’t really like debate format) but it was good none the less.
@Mark, care to elaborate on the PRESENT record of the church that places it in such high standing? I think its present record does a damn fine job showing it ISN’T a force for good.
I find the “ya, you would bring that up…” attitude of Widdencombe to be hugely entertaining. I also find her voice to be hugely annoying (but that’s another talk entirely).
Why can’t we see debates and programs like this in Canada and the US? It would be totally worth it, even if it forced just 700 people (the number who switched to against) to actually think about the topic. Plus, fox news would flip shit if a network aired something like this and that would be priceless.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
“When did the pope reverse the offical catholic opinion on contraception?”
He has not, and he likely will not. The church teaches abstinence, not workarounds. AIDS is a horrible thing, but to blame its proliferation on the Catholic Church or the pope is a stretch (no pun intended) at best. The Church is in Africa to spread the Gospel, not AIDS.
“When did the vatican decide to relieve as much suffering as it’s caused by sharing some of it’s hideous wealth with those that need it?”
Hideous wealth? Are you aware of how much of its money the church invests in goodwill world wide? What about in the U.S.? Do you know how many charities the church runs in the U.S.? Any idea? This is a serious question.
“Besides all that, how is blind faith in the supernatural making a positive difference?”
The supernatural? You lost me. What is supernatural about LOVE? If my faith in LOVE is blind, then so be it. But don’t classify love as though it were some unexplainable phenomena like crop circles.
“The catholic church is still homophobic, misogynist and as fearful of scientific progress as Ann Widdicombe is of a toothbrush.”
Hey wait a minute, you make it sound like the Catholic Church is leading the homophobic movement. The Catholic Church isn’t even a front runner on the war against gay marriage. Of course it is not going to condone something God condemns (nor should you expect it to, for if it did, you would then call it a weak organization with no principles), but that doesn’t mean it hates gay people. Again the CHURCH is the people of the church. I am one of those people. I love gay people. I pray for them. I would never alienate them, cast them out, or deny them of rights. Never. Please don’t stereotype.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
“The catholic church is still homophobic, misogynist and as fearful of scientific progress as Ann Widdicombe is of a toothbrush.”
Also, what is with the personal attack here? You call the church misogynist then disrespect a woman for not having perfect teeth? What is up with that?
November 9th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Mark, the one rule here is this: “don’t fucking tell people how they should talk”. got it?
November 9th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
@Mark,
No one claimed the church is solely responsible for the spread of AIDS, but the fact remains that its stance on abstinence only and its condemning of condoms have made things SO much worse. The church has no interest in protecting or educating people and when you look at the power they hold, that is truly unfortunate.
I can’t give you a dollar figure on how much the church donates, but with the wealth they have, it isn’t enough. Have you seen Sarah Silverman’s video about selling the vatican to feed the world? It makes a good point. If the church is all about helping people, every dime it makes should go towards that…or building more palaces, either way i guess…
There isn’t much to address with the supernatural point, as you side stepped what was said. No one is referring to love as supernatural, they were referring to the sky-god running the show. The backbone of the church is blind faith in a god, that’s all there is to it. Oh, and crop circles aren’t unexplainable, they are done by people with too much time on their hands (although they are fun to make, me and my cousins made one a few hundred feet long one night).
Wait, so your defence of the church’s homophobia is “hey, but we aren’t the worst!”? The church condemns gay marriage. I don’t see how gay marriage is even an issue, it’s about equal rights for everyone. The whole “love the sinner, hate the sin” is such bullshit, it’s a weak cop out. It doesn’t matter if you don’t personally deny gay people rights, you support and are part of an organization that is openly homophobic and you accept their reasoning (”dur..god condemns them”) so it places you in the same boat as them.
November 9th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
To those of you who fall back on the “that was in the past” argument, I suppose we should drop all pending court cases of murderers, rapists, pedophiles, etc. because their crimes were, of course, committed in the past?
November 9th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Brace for shitstorm! It’s been a good couple of days for internet shitstorms.
November 10th, 2009 at 1:47 am
With Catholic bishops having donating somewhere around 200,000$ to the Prop8 campaign (and the Knights Of Columbus having donated somewhere around 1.3 million) and roughly 550,000$ of Catholic donations going to stop marriage in Maine, I find it hard to believe that people wouldn’t consider them key players in the anti-gay marriage campaigns.
(Granted the Mormon funded group ‘National Organization for Marriage’ would probable count as the ‘official’ driving force.)
November 10th, 2009 at 5:57 am
Unfortunately, any serious discussion is impossible within such a limited timeframe. Yesterday, I was on business trip and spoke about religion with my boss in the car. Yes, I know, a dumb thing to do, but he’s cool, a theist with reason and tolerance. Amazing!
We had over 3 hours of discussion, with a lot more left unsaid. And we focused our discussion on one specific. Ethnic hatred in two neighboring nations caused by two branches of Christianity. IMHO, these debates are only good for bringing attention to the issue. Voting is useless and inflammatory in an unproductive way. Make a 3 to 5 hour discussion, and air it over a few days and you may get some value from it, instead of just pre-scripted arguments from either side.
P.S.
Hitchens kicks ass!
November 10th, 2009 at 9:07 am
quote: “All I can say is what Miss Whitcomb said: the church is its members, not just the clergy. No one in my family or circle of Catholics abuses or condones the abuse of children. I have known hundreds of priests and nuns through the years, and not a single one was involved in this scandal.”
The issue is not condoning. The issue is with the fact that what the catholic church condones and does not condone has absolutely no rational basis, and fails to take into account basic human nature… which leads to priests (who are not allowed to marry) sexually abusing children, and AIDS being spread rampantly due to the assumption that people will ignore their carnal desires if told that chastity and faithfulness are enough to halt the spread of the disease… Nevermind that the basic nature of humans leads to sex. Condoms are still evil!!! And will spread AIDS!!!!
Absolutely absurd.
November 10th, 2009 at 9:11 am
oh my god (or lack thereof)….
another quote. ” The Catholic Church isn’t even a front runner on the war against gay marriage.”
You are profoundly deluded. do you have ANY idea how much money the catholic church funnelled into prop 8 in california? And in defeating gay marriage in Maine?????
Come on. Seriously… Come on.
November 10th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Mark said: “I have known hundreds of priests and nuns through the years, and not a single one was involved in this scandal.”
Please Mark, google “crimen sollicitationis” and you will understand why.
November 10th, 2009 at 10:30 am
You have to give some props the bishop and that other cunt. There are very few people who would even AGREE to debating that Catholicism is a force for good. Took some balls for them to just sit there and have their asses handed to them.
November 10th, 2009 at 11:42 am
@ Mark
Where is this undeniable evidence you have for god? You mentioned it in another thread then jsut left it. this seems to be a popular tactic of believers, yell they “know” god is real or the evidence is undeniable, then just walk away never explaining it. Unforunatly for you, saying something doesnt actually make it true.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Thiga: Have you ever heard of a personal truth? Do you have any? I bet you do. I bet to you it’s TRUE that some brand of coffee or tea tastes better than another, yes? That is your truth. The evidence is where? In YOUR taste buds, yes? But to MY taste buds your favorite coffee may taste ghastly, yes? So your truth is not necessarily MY truth, yes?
My TRUTH is that the Holy Spirit has worked in my life in ways that beyond a reasonable doubt prove to me there is a God, and His spirit functions precisely as I al told it functions in the Bible. When I follow the precepts of my religion, Christ’s promises ALWAYS come to fruition. Thus my personal truths are UNDENIABLE. I have personally tried Jesus, and found Him to be 100% genuine.
My truths.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Jordan said: “You have to give some props the bishop and that other cunt. There are very few people who would even AGREE to debating that Catholicism is a force for good. Took some balls for them to just sit there and have their asses handed to them.”
Regardless of where you stand on the issue, how could you call ANY woman such a hateful, degrading thing?
November 10th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Flea said “Please Mark, google “crimen sollicitationis” and you will understand why.”
Hi Flea. I’m quite familiar with crimen soll. Please don’t assume just because it exists my statement is false. I wonder: how many priests and nuns do you know personally? Have you ever met any? If so, have you ever had a meaningful relationship with one? Or are you basing your entire opinion of them on what you have read?
November 10th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Jim said “The issue is not condoning. The issue is with the fact that what the catholic church condones and does not condone has absolutely no rational basis, and fails to take into account basic human nature… which leads to priests (who are not allowed to marry) sexually abusing children, and AIDS being spread rampantly due to the assumption that people will ignore their carnal desires if told that chastity and faithfulness are enough to halt the spread of the disease… Nevermind that the basic nature of humans leads to sex. Condoms are still evil!!! And will spread AIDS!!!!”
Hi Jim, sorry but your rationale is fallacious, not mine. You are familiar with basic argument principles, yes? Let’s have a look at your (and Hitchens) argument:
1. A and B regularly occur together.
2. Therefore A is the cause of B.
That’s called the fallacy of “confusing cause and effect.”
Textbook example:
1. People are dying of AIDS in places where the Catholic Church forbids the use of contraceptive devices.
2. Therefore the Catholic Church are murdering people.
Jim, if you can’t see the fallacy in that… I haven’t much else to say.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Jim said “You are profoundly deluded [that the Catholic Church is not one of the front runners against gay marriage]. do you have ANY idea how much money the catholic church funnelled into prop 8 in california? And in defeating gay marriage in Maine????? Come on. Seriously… Come on.”
Once again Jim, the CHURCH is its members, not JUST the clergy and/or the ones holding the purse strings. It’s not like Catholics had a say on whether or not the bishops would contribute $200,000 or the Knights of Columbus would contribute $1.4 million. We were not asked. The bottom line is that exit polls showed that 36 percent of Catholics actually OPPOSED Prop 8. So when I say the “church” I am referring to the BODY of the church, not just the executive and/or administrative branch.
Also, on a less serious note, I don’t believe there is a such thing as “profoundly deluded.” The word “profound” means to show “intellectual penetration or emotional depth.” I don’t think there is anything intellectually penetrating or emotionally deep about delusion.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Jim, I should circle back to my original intent for saying the church is not the frot runner against gay marriage. I stated that because the Catholic Church is always singled out in conversations about gay marriage, when the LDS was much more vocal, and people like Rick Warren (whose Saddleback church is a juggernaut in the Christian movement against gay marriage) are not even mentioned.
November 10th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
ohhhhhhh so your dont actually have any tangible evidence, you jsut really really believe it. Sorry Mark, thats not evidence. Just because your really believe a delusional doesnt make the delusional true. Show my the scientific evidence that supports god and if its legitimate ill hang off gods nuts so hard it will make even you sick.
Why do you want to believe such nonsense, finding personal evidence is the same thing as me finding personal truth in the orbiting teapot theory. The teapot has helped me in ways you wont even imagin, but i cant prove to you the teapot made the universe but I KNOW it did!!
Its a real shame people are this delusional.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Your logic about coffee brands being equal to belief or nonbelief in god is rediculous. Coffee is real. We know its real its a physical product. Which brand of the physical product you like best isnt the same as believing or not believing in non existing entity. If you can show the same physical proof god exists as there is coffee exists then we are getting somewhere.
The Catholic church rapes probaly thousands if not 10’s of thousands of kids a year and yet your god never says boo about it, his representitives are fucking little kids and ruining their lives for their own preverse pleasure and the fact your god is silent about it means 1 of 2 things. Either there is no god so he cant say anything, or hes just another sick fuck like his priests and bishops. Either way I dont see any reason why you would want to praise him.
November 10th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
I can only assume your erroneous attempt to point out an incorrect useage of the word ‘profound’ by quoting a specific definition that makes what i said appear to be an oxymoron is a desperate straw clutch from a man clinging to a sinking premise.
Profound – Descending far below the surface; opening or reaching to a great depth; deep. (definition #1 on wiktionary)
Delusion – A false belief that is resistant to confrontation with actual facts. (definition #1 on wiktionary)
Now that that’s out of the way, if you’re going to point out a lingual error in future, could you at least do THAT with some intellectual honesty, please?
Now then, onward and upward…
“”"”Hi Jim, sorry but your rationale is fallacious, not mine. You are familiar with basic argument principles, yes? Let’s have a look at your (and Hitchens) argument:
“”"”1. A and B regularly occur together.
“”"”2. Therefore A is the cause of B.
“”"”That’s called the fallacy of “confusing cause and effect.”
“”"”Textbook example:
“”"”1. People are dying of AIDS in places where the Catholic Church forbids the use of contraceptive devices.
“”"”2. Therefore the Catholic Church are murdering people.
“”"”Jim, if you can’t see the fallacy in that… I haven’t much else to say.”"”"
That would actually have some validity if there were no verifiable facts directly linking A and B and i were simply making a speculative and superficial correlation. Unfortunately for you, it’s not that simple, and it seems to me as though you’re just trying to obfuscate the obvious truth by implying that what i said contradicts cause and effect, that somehow factual information is missing… which i suppose is to be expected if you’ve got nothing else to fall back on but feeble attempts at point out nonexistent sophistry.
Let’s have a quick recall of facts.
#1. Condoms fantastically reduce the transmission of aids.
#2. Catholic priests in africa have actually claimed that condoms INCREASE the spread of aids
Where is the logical fallacy in asserting that this attitude, which is imposed upon countless thousands of african catholics infected with HIV, is contributing to the rampant spread of the virus throughout the african continent? Are you seriously going to attempt to refute that? This is exactly what i’m talking about when i say that “The issue is with the fact that what the catholic church condones and does not condone has absolutely no rational basis, and fails to take into account basic human nature”. But further from this… Not only does it fail to take into account human nature, it brazenly contradicts fact, putting into jeopardy the lives of millions of its followers.
And I honestly don’t care all that much that 36% of cathlics opposed prop 8 and that they weren’t all asked and etc etc… My quarrel is not with the people, but with the institution. I am talking about the catholic institution, and its ridiculous and widely varying crusades against homosexual rights, gay marriage, condoms in africa, so on and so forth… The fact that some catholics disagree with tenet A, or with crusade B is moot and not at all addressing any point brought up thus far. The people don’t decide the agenda. The institution does.
November 10th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Wow, I think this is the first time I’ve ever seen someone try to use the gish gallop on a forum.
You’re arguement on the use of condoms is completely false mark, while it is true that confusing correlation with causation is a bad thing, in this case it hasn’t been done. In Africa catholicism has a massive following (as in the interview they said they had over a billion followers) and it is well known that since the vatican basically said that condoms are evil that their usage has dropped, even when provided for free by aid organisations, and in those same areas the HIV and AIDs cases have increased.
And on the prop 8 matter, yes the LDS church may be more vocal but it doesn’t have as big a following, so has less affect even though it is more active.
November 11th, 2009 at 1:12 am
Saw post/link to this on Pharyngula. Hitchins is great.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
Great debate (well, actually more of a massacre)!
Btw I also found an ordered complete playlist on YouTube: http://bit.ly/1oe2oT
November 13th, 2009 at 1:14 am
“”"”I stated that because the Catholic Church is always singled out in conversations about gay marriage, when the LDS was much more vocal, and people like Rick Warren (whose Saddleback church is a juggernaut in the Christian movement against gay marriage) are not even mentioned.”"”"
and
“”"”Hey wait a minute, you make it sound like the Catholic Church is leading the homophobic movement. The Catholic Church isn’t even a front runner on the war against gay marriage.”"”"
This post and this entire discussion have been about the catholic church. Why would anyone bring up the mormons? That would just be off topic. Words to the effect of “We’re not the MOST vehemently homophobic religion/movement” is pathetically weak and a transparent attempt at diversion.
November 13th, 2009 at 7:10 am
Mark,
My TRUTH is that the Mohammed has worked in my life in ways that beyond a reasonable doubt prove to me Allah exists, and His spirit functions precisely as I al told it functions in the Qu’ran. When I follow the precepts of my religion, Mohammed’s promises ALWAYS come to fruition. Thus my personal truths are UNDENIABLE. I have personally tried Mohammed, and found Him to be 100% genuine.
My truths.
Do you see how rationally vacuous such statements are? You can literally find people from ALL religions that can say the same things as you. With as much, if not more, conviction.
All you need to do is change the names to show that such statements contain zero information about truth or how the world works.
Care to furninsh us with more information on how “Jesus has worked in your life”? Something tangible that’s not just an empty statement of belief (which are ten a penny).
December 4th, 2009 at 6:20 am
Regardless of the difference between the clergy or administrative branch, and the people who make up the membership, there is an ethical principle here that should be addressed.
Why would you want to continue to be a member of an organization which has committed so many egregious acts of evil?