More proof Pro-Lifers live in a fantasy land


Are you not tired of people refusing to believe in reason? I know I am. Scientists keeps finding shit out, and morons keep ignoring what they say. The latest in a series of major studies no one will listen to is on whether or not restricting legal abortion reduces the number of women trying to end their pregnancies. The result, unsurprisingly, is that it doesn’t do jack-shit.

I want to speak directly to any pro-lifer who may have stumbled upon this site right now. While you might be naive enough to think that by making a stupid law, you’d somehow “make the world safe for babies”, the only thing you would do is create more problems. Laws invariably creates scofflaws (are you seriously going to jail women for getting abortions?), and since women seek abortions even when they aren’t legal, they would be taking huge health risks terminating their pregnancies. Same amount of abortions, just a lot more deaths and jail sentences. Great job.

So here’s the thing, boys and girls. Abortions aren’t pleasant, but they happen. You have to deal with the fact life isn’t some Disney bullshit, and by trying so hard to ignore reality, you’re just making everything worse. It might be hard for you to accept, but the rest of the world grew up and realized the best way to avoid human suffering and misery was by being smart, not indignant.

Comments (23)

  • avatar

    Razzle

    There may be some laws that can reduce abortions, I won’t put myself out as an expert, but perhaps partial birth abortion laws help reduce abortions.

    I’ll grant you that outlawing abortion altogether wouldn’t help reduce abortion very much and it almost certainly would make them even more horrific for the fetus/baby.

  • avatar

    Wendy

    You da man, Jacob!!!

  • avatar

    Craig

    Partial birth abortion (aka late trimester abortions), while ugly and distressing, is, the vast majority of the time, done in extreme circumstances when the health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, or other complications have arisen. Also, less than 1% of abortions are done in the third trimester.

    The laws which limit late-term abortions are ridiculous, unnecessary, dangerous, and possibly deadly.

    Reality- & science-based sex education, access to reproductive health services and contraception are the best methods of reducing abortions. But a long shot.

  • avatar

    Razzle

    //The laws which limit late-term abortions are ridiculous, unnecessary, dangerous, and possibly deadly.//

    A large part of the debate should be do you consider a 6 month old baby a life. I do, therefore I’m worried about the baby’s life extremely significantly. If there’s some risk of the mother dying – tough titties, unless it was rape(then a late term abortion should be allowed if there’s a risk to the mother), she knew what she was doing – what about the 100% chance of the baby dying?

    Might be 1%, but it’s still important.

  • avatar

    Matt

    @ Razzle “If there’s some risk of the mother dying – tough titties, unless it was rape(then a late term abortion should be allowed if there’s a risk to the mother)”

    This view has always puzzled me. Every life is sacred and abortions are wrong; unless your father was an asshole who raped your mother, then abortions are fair game.

    I agree with the article. Abortions aren’t pleasant, but they do and will happen. As another poster said, education is going to prevent more abortions than anti-abortion laws ever will.

  • avatar

    Razzle

    It’s a balance between – suffering of the child who is aborted and the risk of the suffering of the woman. However, we should only be held responsible for babies we make ourselves and not babies thrust upon us without our choice. At that point, you don’t have the same obligation.

    //I agree with the article. *Manslaughter isn’t pleasant, but they do and will happen. As another poster said, education is going to prevent more masnlaughter *than the threat of jail* ever will.//

    *Edited for effect.

    My point here is if you believe that a 6-9 month old baby is a human life – and many can survive outside of the woman, then killing them is manslaughter at least. Just because outlawing them may not prevent more manslaughters, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it.

  • avatar

    CybrgnX

    All pro-life BS is just that BS!!!!
    They want control of women and that’s ALL!!!
    We all know the old BuyBull arguments that show abortion is not against g0d, so not going to repeat.
    The one fundy statement I thought really stupid was how women get pregnant to have abortions. I would still like to hear about any woman who said ‘oh please make me pregnant so I can get a late-term abortion!!!’

    NO LAW will stop abortion because anywhere abortion is illegal, ‘illegal pregnancy’ has a worse result. So the chance of death from a bad abortion is preferable to the pregnancy.
    ‘manslaughter’ is a bad analogy as it is a legal term. A fetus is NOT a free standing independent human-only a possibility- yes it hurts to loose one if wanted but it is still a potential-so the various forms of murder does not enter in to it-except for the asshole trying to control someone else’s uterus.

  • avatar

    LB

    @Razzle, Lets also not forget the major reason late term abortions happen. Most are conducted to either save the mother’s life or because the baby has some defect that makes it non-viable (like being born without a brain etc…). In these situations the must humane and compassionate thing to do is terminate the pregnancy in a controlled way.

    See if you can find that great Neil DeGrasse Tyson video on this site where he has a slide with all the gruesome things that can happen in the womb. I wouldn’t wish that on anybody.

  • avatar

    Razzle

    //A fetus is NOT a free standing independent human-only a possibility//

    They feel pain and fear and many babies 7+ months would survive, if they were taken out of the mother.

    //Most are conducted to either save the mother’s life or because the baby has some defect that makes it non-viable (like being born without a brain etc…). In these situations the must humane and compassionate thing to do is terminate the pregnancy in a controlled way.//

    No problem here, I’m totally with you.

    //yes it hurts to lose one if wanted, but it is still a potential-so the various forms of murder does not enter in to it-except for the asshole trying to control someone else’s uterus.//

    It feels pain and fear not potential pain and fear, real fucking pain and fear. I cannot speak for everyone who agrees with my views, but I don’t wanna control women at all, I don’t view it this way. In the 3rd trimester, there’s a little human being in the woman- not a biological growth. It IS most definitely killing a human, so you better make fucking sure you have a good reason – not just “oh well, the mother doesnt want it”

  • avatar

    Razzle

    You made the choice to get pregnant, you have a god damned human in you when it’s 6 or 7 months + and you have some fucking responsibilities, not to just dig it out with a fucking coat hanger.

    Just to make sure you guys dont get it twisted, im a strong atheist, I agree with Hitchens on abortion.

  • avatar

    Amy

    Razzle, wake up or just shut the fuck up. Please.

  • avatar

    Razzle

    Ad hominem. You lose.

  • avatar

    Zac

    I honestly don’t care either way. If I marry a pro-life woman, I will support her opinions; same goes for if I marry a pro-choice woman. I just don’t see why a man would have any say in the abortion process. It’s the woman’s body, and I personally believe that she gets to choose if she wants to carry something in it for 9 months.

    I agree that late-term abortions are gruesome, any abortions are so, but when the woman’s life is on the line I just don’t see any reason to choose the baby over the mother.

    [I'm not going to come back and look at any potential response from Razzle, so don't even bother aiming anything towards my opinion on this matter. It's just a waste of your time.]

  • avatar

    Liudvikas

    It’s really simple. If you simply do not want to have a baby, then there’s plenty of time to get an abortion before fetus develops enough for it to be called a human. But if a mother is in danger then her life is definitely still more valuable than fetuses even if it’s 3rd trimester.

  • avatar

    Razzle

    //it’s really simple. If you simply do not want to have a baby, then there’s plenty of time to get an abortion before fetus develops enough for it to be called a human//

    Yea, for me it’s a sliding scale, but certainly in the last trimester – especially towards the end they are fully human.

    //But if a mother is in danger then her life is definitely still more valuable than fetuses even if it’s 3rd trimester.//

    What’s the difference between 1 day before the baby is born and 1 day after? Is the baby’s life equal to the mother after it’s born, but not the day before?
    It would be an arbitrary distinction – completely.

    The issue is not simple at all, you must realize for us, a baby in the third trimester is a human life, with almost the same ability to feel pain and fear as right when it comes out of the vag.

    The legality of an abortion should be based on a balance for the baby to feel pain and fear and the chance of death of the mother.

  • avatar

    Razzle

    ///But if a mother is in danger then her life is definitely still more valuable than fetuses even if it’s 3rd trimester.//

    Perhaps we should assign percentage importance by age to a percentage risk to a mother’s life. IE at 3 weeks the baby = nearly 0, at 8 1/2 months = 95%

  • avatar

    Liudvikas

    Razzle, even newly born babies shows no signs of human sentience, no one has memories of that age. So for all intents and purposes we can say that they have no developed consciousness, only instinct based reactions. I could be wrong about that, but a good factor to decide is that mother understands concept of death, on the other hand a nearly developed fetus or newly born baby has no understanding of death and therefore fear of it is purely instinctual.
    And for me mothers life is still infinitely more valuable than fetuses.
    So I give you solution:
    Abortions stay legal. In any case 3rd trimester abortions would be performed only under special conditions, because there is no way there would be somebody dumb enough not to notice pregnancy for 6 months.
    And abortions just for the sake of not wanting a baby 99.9% of the time would be performed on the 1st trimester. Theres just no reason for the mother to wait longer.

  • avatar

    Razzle

    //razzle, even newly born babies shows no signs of human sentience, no one has memories of that age. So for all intents and purposes we can say that they have no developed consciousness, only instinct based reactions.//

    Most people don’t remember shit from the time they were 2 years old either. Does this make it ok to kill them?

    //signs of human sentience//
    I’m not sure you even know what this means. But, i’ll work with you -neither do people in a coma, is it ok to kill them?

    //newly born baby has no understanding of death//
    Is it ok to kill the retarded if don’t understand death?

  • avatar

    Liudvikas

    You misunderstood me, I’m not telling we should kill any of those, I’m merely implying that their inherent value is lower, than that of a fully functional person. It is not ok to kill either of them and I’m not advocating to do that, but if their continued existence causes risk to a fully functional and aware person, then saving that person is a better choice.

  • avatar

    Razzle

    //, I’m merely implying that their inherent value is lower//
    So a 2 year old doesn’t count the same as a 3 year old?

    Also, I covered this, i said at 3 weeks after conception, their “value” is very close to 0 %, but at 8 and 1/2 months it’s maybe 95%.

    //I’m not telling we should kill any of those//

    I’m using an exaggeration for effect – you didn’t say we should, you’re just saying it’s criminal – not criminal to kill the retarded, or those in a coma, or babies (most) – who aren’t either – apparently.

    We have to set some arbitrary date when someone is fully human, to me, maybe viability outside of the vag – or perhaps birth seems like a good milestone. But, that doesnt mean that a day before those milestones, the person has no value at all.

  • avatar

    Razzle

    * shit i messed up the typing there – should say “you didn’t say we should, you’re just saying it’s not criminal”

  • avatar

    Liudvikas

    It seems that we are arguing on numbers. For me 8 and 1/2 months is more like 0.01%. When it start to think and reason then it becomes 100%.

  • avatar

    Razzle

    Yes, This is where the disagreement needs to take place, the numbers. What we need now is scientific opinion of how much babies suffer at what age and what their cognitive abilities are. This won’t give us a final answer as to the issue, but this is the info we need.

    I don’t have all of the information. I remember the shit I’ve read and heard in biology class generally, but not perfectly, so I cannot quote you exacts.

    What i mean my biggest point to be, is that this is where the majority of the abortion debate should take place.

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