I think what upsets me the most about many Christians is their incessant need to remind non-believers that we are going to burn in eternal fire for not subscribing to their religion. Personally, I find it a most repulsive idea, and the tragedy is that most of these individuals are convinced that by reminding us that our “souls” are facing eternal torture, they are actually doing us a big favor.
The problem here is not their proselytizing; I actually don’t mind when people try to change my opinion about a subject. It allows me to “preach” my atheism back to them, so at least there’s an implicit understanding there. My problem is how easily these people seem to gloss over the fact that fundamentally, they have no moral objection to seeing me eternally tortured. They believe that since the rulebook wasn’t written by them, it isn’t their responsibility as to what happens when non-believers die; that’s all God’s doing.
There are plenty of terrible examples of the kind of horror humans inflict on one another when they are simply “following orders”. The Millgram experiments in the 60’s showed that so long as human beings are told by a person of authority what to do, over half of the test subjects were willing to kill someone if ultimately the responsibility wasn’t theirs. It was a chilling reminder that even the nicest people can do evil things given the right circumstances.
My message to Christians is fairly straighfoward; you shouldn’t accept the poisonous idea that non-believers are condemned to hell. If your God really is all loving, there’s no reason to punish those who simply fail to accept his existence. Besides, there are so many religions out there that the odds are stacked AGAINST anyone actually getting the “right” one, so it’s likely that we’d all end up in Hell anyways. What a terrible thing to think, is it not?
So, please stop trying to pass the buck and claim that it isn’t your choice that I go to Hell. If you are a good person, how could you accept that your Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, or Jewish friend will be burning in brimstone and ash while you enjoy the comforts of paradise? Could you eating a great meal if you had to consume it in front of a bunch of starving African children? If you could, then shame on you.
July 21st, 2009 at 11:36 am
My God is loving, but He’s also a God of laws and justice. If He were to just let everyone into Heaven, then He would be letting evil people into Heaven, and that would be against His character. I think the problem you’re having is that you don’t like God’s definition of “good” and “evil.”
You’re right in one area though: It isn’t my choice. But I don’t want you to go to hell, so that’s why I come to this blog. God doesn’t want you to go to hell either (”who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” 1 Tim 2:4). But in the end, some will go to hell and some won’t. God can’t be just and hate evil if evil goes unpunished.
I’m no pastor, so I’m sure I didn’t explain that too well, so feel free to ask questions
July 21st, 2009 at 11:54 am
You don’t understand the context of the article, Ben. I deplore your sick idea that those who refuse to accept your savior are condemned to hell. You can try to beat around that bush, and you can try to think of yourself as good and kind for trying to “convert” me, but it is the ideology of hell that is poisonous.
Your gentle Nazarene is the one who brought forward the concept of eternal torture. Even the Old Testament which i find morally repulsive doesn’t condemn others to eternal torture.
No offense, but there are no “answers” that you can give that washes such a vile ideology away.
July 21st, 2009 at 12:03 pm
What should the punishment for breaking God’s law be then? If God exists and created everything, doesn’t He get to make the rules, not us?
Also, God has given us a way to avoid this in His Son dying (willingly, by the way “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10:18) on the cross.
July 21st, 2009 at 12:07 pm
What are we, children? Do we need to be punished by the other ancient Gods for not following their laws as well? Ben, you’re a nice guy, but you believe in some disturbing shit, buddy.
July 21st, 2009 at 12:15 pm
If you believe what the bible says, then yes, God calls us His children. Don’t dodge the question though. Assuming God exists, what should the punishment for breaking God’s law be? And why should you get to decide and not God?
July 21st, 2009 at 12:29 pm
“Assuming God exists, what should the punishment for breaking God’s law be? And why should you get to decide and not God?”
Gee I don’t know, maybe keep “bad” people in a separate place, but not torture them forever. That seems to be what a loving god would do. Heck, even our secular government recognizes that torturing prisoners is wrong.
Ben, I think you dodged the notion that Jesus invented Hell. Obviously, the old ways weren’t being taken as seriously so Jesus had to shake it up. Put the fear of god into the people, so to speak. You have to admit, Its the ultimate good cop bad cop routine. (Where God is both cops)
July 21st, 2009 at 12:35 pm
“If He were to just let everyone into Heaven, then He would be letting evil people into Heaven, and that would be against His character. I think the problem you’re having is that you don’t like God’s definition of “good” and “evil.””
I was always told that you get in by faith, not works, and shown Bible verses to back this up. I constantly hear people criticized for saying that good works do anything toward your earning your tenure in Heaven. So tons of good people will burn in Hell for all eternity, while faithful wife-beaters and assholes will go to Heaven. Fred Phelps: Heaven. Gandhi: Hell.
So, yes, God’s definition of “good” and “evil” are seriously messed up. It amounts to a country club full of gullible people willing to become slaves to the owner and flatter him the most. Suffice it to say, there will be exponentially more good people in Hell. I think I’d rather go there, if given the choice.
July 21st, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Personally I’m more puzzled than angry when theists threaten me with Hell. Look, you know I don’t believe in God, Heaven and Hell. So isn’t it rather stupid to threaten me with something I don’t believe exists? This complete lack of logical thinking disturbs me the most.
July 21st, 2009 at 12:46 pm
@Ben:
I have three children. So, naturally, by your own morality, I am in charge of their punishment. And I’ve decided to become more like Jesus.
Usually I’ll ground them, or give them a spank. But now I know that’s not the Jesus way! So, since God thoughts are above my thoughts, and I should come follow him, I’m instituting a new discipline scheme.
Eternal punishment.
See, I can not look upon a dirty room with the least agree of allowance. These aren’t my rules – I simply can not be inside a dirty room. So next time I come across my children in a dirty room, it’s time for the proper punishment you think God should give us.
That means they’re going to be spanked. Forever. I’m going to give up my job so I can sit there, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Oh, sure, some people will say “John, that’s horrible. Punishing someone for days, weeks, years is an awful thing to do. It’s inhumane!”
Hey – it’s Yahweh, not My Way. So as much as my children cry, beg and scream, I’m going to keep spanking them. All the time. Every day. And when they turn 18 do they get to leave home? Of course not! God has shown me that it’s suppose to be unending torment and punishment for them!
Oh, wait, maybe I should have my first born son take the punishment as a sacrifice for the other two kids. Sure, I could be a reasonable, actually loving person and decide “You know, I really don’t need to torture people, especially my children.” But it’s not My Way, it’s Yahweh!
For some reason, this reminds me of Chairman Mao. How he had an entire town that was watched 24 hours a day by his police, and people had to be writing down what they did wrong, and when caught in a crime, it was time for lashings and other horrible punishments. Some tried to commit suicide, because non-existence would be preferable to an eternity of being punished for thought crimes.
I used to think that Mao was a horrible human being. Now, though, I understand: he was just trying to be like Jesus, because I’m sure Mao couldn’t look upon lawbreaking with the least degree of allowance.
Of course, the proper thing to do would be to acknowledge people as grownups at some people who can make their own decisions. To properly punish people for crimes to correct their behavior, not to punish them simply because, well, *somebody* has to be punished. Humanity moved beyond thinking that torture was an appropriate way of punishing people for crimes. Now, people think that reforming is the way to go (well, unless your the US Industrial Prison system).
But thanks to you, Ben, I have now seen the error of my ways. So, I’m going to go get the biggest belt, and find my children’s rooms. Thanks again for the child rearing tips from God!
July 21st, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Went to lunch and now I have a back log!
First of all, the Old Testament talks about hell.
From http://www.puritanfellowship.com/2008/01/hell-in-old-testament.html:
Dan 12:2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. ”
Isaiah 66:24 ““ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
There’s more on that site. Needless to say, Jesus didn’t invent this concept.
Next, it’s true that you’re saved by faith, and not by works (Ephesians 2:12). However, it’s also true that your works are what prove your faith. “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” James 2:17. The way it’s been explained to me is “Your works show the faith that you already have.” Hope that makes sense.
@John Hummel: If you discipline your children, and they continue to disobey you, do you not discipline them further? If they repent and obey, you relent. God has given us the same opportunity. It’s not a “One strike and you’re out” system. (If you really want to take the role of God in that example, you would hit yourself with the belt! That’s what Jesus did for us in taking the punishment (death) for our sins).
July 21st, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Hey Jacob,
If you wouldn’t mind, could you install the “Subscribe to Comments” plugin? It’s a nifty little plugin that lets people be notified via email that a new comment has been posted.
http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/subscribe-to-comments/
Just a suggestion
July 21st, 2009 at 1:25 pm
@Ben: Oh, Ben, how little you understand. You see, you’re looking at this from a human perspective.
I’m looking at it from the true perspective. The Yahweh perspective.
You see, by your beliefs that I am now accepting, when a person dies, that’s it – time for either reward or punishment. You either get to go to Heaven, where you’ll praise God eternally, or you’ll go to Hell, where you’ll be tortured for eternity with great weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Hm. Praise an omnipotent being for all time who has a psychological need to prop up his ego via the constant praise of all of his creations, or eternal punishment. Hard choice there.
But obviously I can’t do that to my kids. So instead, I’m going to do it God’s way. There is a time appointed to my children for repentance and good deeds. We’ll call it “The second until they leave the room.” And during the time in that room, they have the chance to clean it up and then beg from my forgiveness – ignoring that it’s not *my* laws they’re breaking, just the laws I’m enforcing.
Of course, if they don’t, then I’ll whip them.
Forever.
And ever.
And ever.
Just like you say your made up god will do to me if I don’t submit to his “choose me or choose eternal punishment policy.” See, I thought that morality wasn’t torturing people. Forever. Even beyond death.
But now I know the right way. After all, if its good enough for God, it’s good enough for me. And like you say – if we’re God’s children, he gets to do whatever he wants to us. It’s Yahweh or the high way!
And since my children are, well, my kids – guess what. I guess that means I get to do whatever I want to as well.
Maybe I should just flood their room instead, sparing one child after they load up the toys two-by-two and float while their siblings drown. Nah. That would be the actions of a murderous maniac.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:26 pm
One thing that confuses me is this ‘My God is…’ rubbish. It’s like you’re admitting that god is made up, in your mind. God to you is and he is different to other people because he is not real, he is made in your mind, he is in your imagination so you imagine him however you want him to be!
If he were every one’s god he would be consistent and we would all see him and we would all see him in the same was as you do.
I am real, any one who meets me can say ‘Lilly is white’ or ‘Lilly has a hat on today’ No one is going to say ‘Lilly is purple’ or ‘Lilly is wearing a tortoise on her head today’, well not unless they’re crazy!
God told Anthony Joseph to kill Jenny Morrison… that doesn’t sound like your God does it Ben?
July 21st, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Ben, I’m going to be making a few adjustments to the site in the coming months, and a comment feed is a great idea. I will add that to the list!
July 21st, 2009 at 1:40 pm
You’re still admitting that works are secondary to faith and are not a requirement. Also, if faith and belief are all thats necessary, then there’s still the very real problem of faithful assholes (see Fred Phelps — he truly truly believes with all his heart and mind… moreso than most Christians, I’d dare say) getting into Heaven, and some of the best minds and ’souls’ ever known to mankind being thrown into a lake of fire (again, Gandhi is a decent universally-known example).
Again, I refute your point that God has some standard of ‘good’ and ‘evil’ by which he sorts Heaven-bound souls and Hell-bound souls. By your admission, he truly doesn’t. He takes the flatterers, regardless of how good they are, and casts off the skeptics and non-believers, even if they were the most loving, selfless, and moral people to have graced the planet. It’s an absolutely wicked and terrible concept.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:00 pm
@John Hummel So, are you trying to say that you should do to your children the same thing God will do to His whom don’t repent? That’s not how God tell us how to live (”It is mine to avenge; I will repay.” Deut 32:35). Or, are you trying to show that it’s evil to send people to hell? (Note: Children are exempt from this, see “Age of Accountability”) If so, it only would be if God didn’t give us a chance to not to go there! God gives us a chance because He loves us. Yes, there will be a time when that’s no longer the case (see Revelation).
@Lilly That’s not what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying is that “I believe that the God of Christianity is _____.” Do I have it 100% right? Maybe not. But do I have the main part right (Jesus dying for my sins, repentance, etc)? Yes!
July 21st, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Ben, my question to you is simple? Why would any “all-loving” God require faith to get into heaven instead of the far more simple requirement of being a decent human being? Why would an “all-loving” God say that even if you sin, you can get into heaven by believing and going to church and confessing, but you can’t get into heaven if you’re a good guy that hasn’t done much to be ashamed of but don’t believe? This is the concept with religions that I simply cannot understand.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:06 pm
“Ben, my question to you is simple.” Not “simple?”
July 21st, 2009 at 2:09 pm
There’s no point in talking to Ben. He believes in the tooth fairy and santa claus.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:17 pm
@Ben: I’m saying I should do *exactly* what God says he’ll do to me to my children.
If God is just, and loving, then surely doing what God does is a good thing.
If the God you claim to worship decides that, when I die, that I am be tortured forever, then that means that torturing people with eternal torment is a just thing to do.
I realize now I’ve been doing it wrong my entire life. And I have you to thank for it. My kids might not be thanking you, but really – what do they know of God’s justice? Now, I’ll make sure they fully understand.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:20 pm
@RK The reason is b/c of God’s standard of holiness. There’s two ways to get to heaven. 1) Follow God’s law perfectly your whole life or 2) Believe that Jesus died for your sins and repent. See what I said above. God is loving, but He also is just and hates sin.
@Adam I believe that an intelligent creator created the universe, and that it is acurately represented by the Biblical account. Is that better than saying “The universe arose from nothing.”? I think so.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:23 pm
My question is with point #2. Why do you have to believe in Jesus and repent? Why can you not simply repent and not believe?
July 21st, 2009 at 2:35 pm
@Ben: Who says the universe “arose from nothing”? Oh yea, I know. Dishonest religious people say that. Scientists certainly don’t. They say “we don’t know”. But that’s not a phrase a simpleton like you is able to comprehend, is it?
July 21st, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Ben,
How can you trust what is written in the Bible? It’s been proven to be written and rewritten, altered and changed by committees and people in power who are trying to control an ignorant population.
if GOD exists, how can you trust that the people who wrote the bible wrote the true word of god. Especially when there’s countless bibles written and translated by who knows how many people.
Sorry if this is off topic but every conversation with a theist falls back on “Well the bible says…”
If God exists, prove to me that YOUR bible is his final word. I bet you can’t do it.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:57 pm
@RK repent to who? If God doesn’t exist, who are you repenting to, and what are you repenting about?
@Hansen I don’t see why you have to resort to name-calling. I can accept a “I don’t know” answer. I don’t think you should leave it there tho. Like Jacob has said, you gotta ask questions.
@chocobar Who has been proven to have altered and rewritten the Bible? I choose to believe the bible because I believe it most acurately represents reality, the creation of the universe, history, who God is, and what He has done for us.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Ben
“The reason is b/c of God’s standard of holiness. There’s two ways to get to heaven. 1) Follow God’s law perfectly your whole life or 2) Believe that Jesus died for your sins and repent. See what I said above. God is loving, but He also is just and hates sin.”
So let me get this strait all powerful God created humans without the ability to fallow his law found in the first for books of the Bible (lot of weird stuff in there). But he says if we don’t we will go to hell. The only was to get out of this fate is to believe the same as you. Right or wrong
July 21st, 2009 at 3:04 pm
@Rob Right in some respect. I do believe that we are unable to follow God’s law, thus the need for Christ. But I don’t believe you have to believe EXACTLY what I believe. For example, some people believe in “predestination”, while others don’t. To me, that’s not a “fall on my sword” issue. There’s scripture to support either way, and I think “I don’t know” is an acceptable answer. Other things, like Christ being God, Christ dying for your sins, to name a few, are set in stone. So, to answer your question, “Kinda?”
July 21st, 2009 at 3:26 pm
@Ben: About the name-calling: Cry me a river, you lying piece of intellectual dead-weight.
Who said anything about not asking questions? The question is already asked and the answer is “we don’t know”. Or for the more daring scientists, the answer may be “we don’t know yet”.
As for non-scientists, it is perfectly reasonable to “stop there” as you put it. Most people I know neither knows nor cares how the universe came to be. They’ve got more important things to do – like living their lives and (this may be shocking to you) actually enjoying it. Knowing the answer to this so-called Big Question is quite frankly not important to most people. Life is short and we only live once – so make the most of it and stop worrying.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Why are some parts of the bible set in stone and others are open to interpretation?
July 21st, 2009 at 3:36 pm
“@RK repent to who? If God doesn’t exist, who are you repenting to, and what are you repenting about?”
Repenting to your conscience… I would hope everyone has a conscience by virtue of being a human being (go ahead and laugh at me for being hopelessly naive). You would be repenting for something that you did that is morally wrong.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:36 pm
“I can accept a “I don’t know” answer. I don’t think you should leave it there tho. Like Jacob has said, you gotta ask questions.”
Ben, one could argue by the same logic that believers in the bible just “leave it” at “The Bible said so” rather than asking questions when it comes to the origin of the universe.
Science says “I don’t know *yet*” and continues to ask questions.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Ben
Is God all powerful and if so can ha create humans with the ability to flow his law ?(note: his law seem to have a lot to do with farming regulations) And if so how is it a righteous act to condemn them to hell for not fallowing it? I know you have read the book of romans 3:23 it clearly states that all humans have sinned. Pleas clarify this contradiction if God needs his law to be fallowed at all costs why not give us the ability to do so. And how about a clear cut law. Would you call it a sin to eat pork b/c God thinks so?
July 21st, 2009 at 3:48 pm
@Hansen harsh dude, harsh
I can’t argue with an “I don’t know answer”
It’s not enough for me though. I guess I’m not included in the “most people” category 
@chocobar I’d say that there are parts of the Bible that support both sides of a theological arguement. Predestination, some of the prophecies in Revelation, can be interpreted in different ways. Others, like God existing, Jesus being His son, Jesus dying for our sins, need for repentance, etc, are pillars of Christianity.
Hope that makes sense
July 21st, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Ben “I don’t know” is a valid answer its truthful that is how science works. Not religion it works by just making thinks up. I’m sure I don’t know it all but you don’t know either.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Who chooses the pillars of Christianity?
The existense of God is a theological argument, so is Jesus being his son if all you go by is the bible.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:13 pm
@Will I actually agree with you on that one. I think too few Christians follow Philippians 2:12 and “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” We SHOULD ask questions!
@Rob Good question! I asked that same question awhile ago, and one of the pastors at the church I go to gave a great answer. I’ll look it up for you and post it here later today, because it really made sense to me, and I don’t want to butcher it
July 21st, 2009 at 4:23 pm
@Rob I’m not claiming to know for sure. I’m trying to give the best answer I can given the evidence.
@chocobar The pillars of Christianity are defined in the Bible. The existence of God is assumed in the Bible right from the get-go (”In the beginning, God…” Gen 1:1).
July 21st, 2009 at 4:33 pm
But then it goes back to interpreting the bible and choosing which parts to believe.
Why are his rules open to interpretation but his existense is beyond question? it all comes from the same book.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:34 pm
@Ben: I am privileged to be living in one of the least religious countries in the world. So when I say “most people”, I do refer to people for whom religion has little or no relevance (except when Islam rears its ugly head due to immigration).
The “don’t know” answer is the honest answer based on facts. Not enough for you? Too bad – I guess reality sucks for you then. If you truly want to know, then I’d suggest taking up a career in physics and specialize in cosmology. Then you can work together with other curious people in an attempt to find the answers and inform the rest of us about them. Until then, I don’t give a damn what you claim to know about the origin of the universe.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:44 pm
@chocobar When did I say anything about choosing which parts to believe? And I don’t believe there is much interpretation about how His rules play out, they’re pretty well-defined in the old and new testaments.
@hansen If you don’t care about my beliefs, you’re free to ignore me. I was here to have some debate.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Ben
“I’m trying to give the best answer I can given the evidence.”
The Bible is thin evidendence indeed. Are you familiar with the scientific process? The Iliad is not evidence for monsters. No ancient text is evidence for the supernatural.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:51 pm
@Rob Science hasn’t given a good answer for my questions about the origins of the universe, the origins of life, the meaning of life, etc. Therefore, I’m forced to look elsewhere.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:54 pm
@Ben: I would love to ignore you. Unfortunately, when you try to spew your immoral beliefs and make junk statements about scientific issues, I feel compelled to react. You aren’t speaking in a vacuum and some people are affected by your unfounded claims about reality. So no, people like you are impossible to ignore.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:57 pm
@ben,
I realize you’re getting ganged up on here, but I still have to point this out. You said above this: “When did I say anything about choosing which parts to believe? And I don’t believe there is much interpretation about how His rules play out, they’re pretty well-defined in the old and new testaments.”
Does it even need mentioning that nearly all judeo/christian religions vary wildly about which parts they see as important and which parts are unneeded? Jewish people will tell you that the entire new testament is false, yet they cling tenaciously to the old testament. Even among christians there is wide disparity over what the scripture is trying to say and what parts people choose to be important. The works v.s. faith aspect which has been mentioned above is a big arguing point among religions, and you can easily use select scriptures to back up either position.
I don’t think you’ve very adequately answered the earlier question either of whether it is just to condemn a good, well meaning person to hell, just because they didn’t ‘accept Christ and his atonement’. The honest truth is that sending someone to hell and another to heaven based on an arbitrary dividing line like, ‘faith in Christ’ is not only sick, but contrary to the idea of a loving god. He’s more of a monster by that set of characteristics.
You seem like a nice guy, and I comend you for standing up for your beliefs, but I really have trouble seeing your point of view, and how you can reconcile a ‘loving’ God with the one written of in the bible is odd to say the least.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Do you follow these rules? They seem pretty well defined.
Deuteronomy 21: 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, 19 then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out 20 unto the elders of his city, and 21 all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
If I let My neighbors stone my son to death, they would go to prison.
1 Timothy 2: 11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.
According to this women shouldn’t be in power. i bet if I went to my boss and told her “the bible says I don’t have to do what you say” I would get fired.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:11 pm
@mateo Thanks for the sympathy
So many questions, and I’m sure I haven’t answered any of them well 
1) All of the Bible is important, and there are parts that can be interpreted differently. I’ll agree with you on that. Would you also agree there are parts where the Bible leaves very little if any room for interpretation?
2) I thought I did answer that pretty well, but if not, I’ll restate my answer: God is loving, but He is also just, and punishes according to His law. He’s the deciding factor between good and evil, not me. In His love, He has given us His Son to pay the price for our sins, should we decide to believe in Him and repent.
Hope that clarifies
July 21st, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Maybe this would help some of you understand how God is both loving and just (written by Ravi Zacharias, one of my favorite authors): http://books.google.com/books?id=9_jToqdCgGQC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=God+is+loving+and+just&source=bl&ots=W3UqVHEEZk&sig=Z5G5tf3MsLCRMTbKmRS1gcN5T0c&hl=en&ei=Ty9mSojZCI64MPWygKMB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4
July 21st, 2009 at 5:18 pm
@Ben
“Science hasn’t given a good answer for my questions about the origins of the universe, the origins of life, the meaning of life, etc. Therefore, I’m forced to look elsewhere.”
Science has given perfectly acceptable answers. Listen I grew up in the Church I know what its like. They give you pat answers and mischaracterize evolution.
Also I look froward to your answer to my question
Is God all powerful and if so can ha create humans with the ability to flow his law ?(note: his law seem to have a lot to do with farming regulations) And if so how is it a righteous act to condemn them to hell for not fallowing it? I know you have read the book of romans 3:23 it clearly states that all humans have sinned. Pleas clarify this contradiction if God needs his law to be fallowed at all costs why not give us the ability to do so. And how about a clear cut law. Would you call it a sin to eat pork b/c God thinks so?
I think if you where intellectually honest you may see some flaws in your beliefs
July 21st, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Ben,
Yeah, you’re having lots of questions thrown at you so it’s understandable that you’ll miss a few, don’t worry about it. You’re taking the attacks rather well, I might add.
You say that parts of the Bible are unquestionable. I don’t know if that’s actually true though. Again, even the parts that seem the most clear cut to one person can seem incorrect to another. Christ as a savior is a good example. To christians, the Old testament gives many prophesies of the coming of Jesus Christ. To people of the Jewish faith, the old testament is, clearly (according to them), speaking of a savior that has not come. To them Christ was merely a preacher.
You mentioned earlier that the bible answers the quetions that science cannot yet answer. Questions such as the beginning of the universe, or the origin of life. I have trouble with this mentality, because to me everything in the bible seems to be pretty fluid. Not (IMO) a good foundation for finding out such things. Granted, none of us knows exactly what’s going to happen, (regardless of how some arrogantly assume so.) I just don’t see the bible as having a very good track record for reliability.
So, your supposition that God is both just and merciful is one that I’ve heard quite a few times but it still is fundamentally flawed. Here’s the problem I have with it. If we say that the universe has a set of fundamental laws that are outside of God’s power to control, then I think I could agree with you. If however, God is an omnipotent creator. That he made everything, then we find that his way of doing things is rather unjust. He would need to have a way for all those people that didn’t accept Christ (because they never heard of him, or because, like me, the supporting evidence wasn’t very convincing) to still be saved. Otherwise he really is just drying a silly line in the sand, and saying, “if you happen to have heard of this guy named Jesus, and accept him into your heart (whatever that means) then I’ll bring you into heaven so you can worship me forever. If you were born in the vast majority of places on earth and happened not to hear about Christ, and lived an excellent, moral life, then I’ll burn you for eternity.” This doesn’t seem like a just God, but it’s what is described in the Bible (at least the way most Christians interpret it. Many of which claim the Bible to be pure and perfect. If your idea is different that’s fine, but it means that the bible can not be seen as a reliable source for knowledge, since it’s obvious that people see the same words to mean very different things.
Sorry I’m running on here a bit but the point is that the bible in and of itself doesn’t seem to be a very good place to find truth, since it relies on having the ‘correct’ interpretation of what it says. It lacks the clarity that a set of laws would have.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:44 pm
To clarify something in the above statement.
If there are principles of the universe over which God has no control (certain actions make a person ‘dirty’ and they can’t return to the realm god is in without being made ‘clean’ by christ) then it would seem that god is making due to the best of his ability because he is brought to an impasse where he can’t save his people because of some odd eternal nature of the cosmos. Then it would make sense (although we need to determine where/why these laws exist in the way that they do) that people are going to hell. Essentially it would say that God didn’t do it. If however he is sending them there for a set of rules that he created, then it becomes perfectly logical to question his motives or morality. It just wouldn’t make sense for him to create a bunch of arbitrary rules that inhibit his children (who he supposedly loves perfectly) from eternal bliss, and instead consign the vast majority (very few people that have lived on the earth have been christian, so very few have accepted Christ’s atonement) of his own creations to endless torment, over a rule that he just created. It seems contradictory to me.
I realize that this is not the way Christians like to look at it, because it’s impossible to see a kind benevolent creator that would do such a thing. It seems rather deniable that these accusations are true based on what the bible has to say on the matter though.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:28 pm
@Ben even assuming the existence of god, you have absolutely no reason at all to trust the bible. We have numerous occurances of mistranslations which convey a different meaning, blatant contradictions and outright abominable behavior advertised as noble. You belive the bible because it says so in the bible that it is true, why don’t you believe in harry potter then? It says so in the books that they are true as well.
Take a look at these links: http://unreasonablefaith.com/2008/11/17/an-evil-god-introduction/
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=009_1198085630
And this is from a mormon who is as frustrated as we are by senseless bible quoting nonesense http://www.marshallthompson.org/wordpress/?p=398
July 21st, 2009 at 10:45 pm
@Ben read thid too http://www.iheartchaos.com/content/18-fun-atrocities-straight-bible-more-you-know
I dare you to try and justify these pasages!!!
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Ben
What happened
July 22nd, 2009 at 6:35 pm
I’m kind of torn on the subject. I hate the idea of Hell, but I get annoyed when liberal Christians try to pretend it’s not in their Bible. They ignore all the nasty stuff, and I’m glad they don’t act on it, but it’s intellectually dishonest of them. What I really want to see is Christians giving up their religion entirely, not just half-heartedly believing it.
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:22 am
@Ben….Your bible says we are already paying the price of sin by dying.
The wages sin pays is death. So, your god wants to punish all over again through hell? He’s rather confused and evil isn’t he?
July 24th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Okay, here’s the dope:
When your kid misbehaves, you punish them. There is a good reason for this – it teaches the child that the action they have performed is wrong and discourages them from performing it in the future. If – and ONLY if – they misbehave again, you may repeat the procedure. In this way, your child eventually learns that good behavior results in reward and bad behavior results in punishment.
So what is Hell teaching sinners? They’re going to be in there forever, so it’s not like they’ll “learn their lesson” and then be set free to practice the things they have just been taught. Nope – they’ll be in there forever and ever, suffering horrible torments long after they have repented of their sins.
In other words, we punish our children to give them a chance to learn. Hell punishes people to make them miserable. How is that okay?
God can be loving or just, but he cannot be loving and just and send His people to burn forever. Not only is it pointless and cruel – as I stated above – but the punishment is extremely disproportionate. How disproportionate? Let me give you an idea:
“Suppose that, somewhere out in space, there is a huge bronze planet, many times bigger than Earth. Now suppose that there is also a bird flying through space, and that once every year, the bird flies by that planet and brushes it with its wing. When that bird has managed to wear the planet of brass down to nothing, that will be the end of the first day of eternity.”
I have no idea how long it would take the hypothetical bird to wear down the hypothetical planet. My guess, though, would be around several billion years. That is several billion years that a person in Hell will be punished for a handful of sins that they committed in just a few minutes and repented of only hours after they entered Hell. By now, they probably don’t even remember what they’re being punished for – and yet this is only the end of their first day of torment.
Fair? Just? You be the judge.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
I am not the most articulate person. But I will attempt.
I do not think the issue is that some “Christians” believe in the punishment of hell. IMO, the issue is, there is no free thought in regards to christians and what the bible says. Or, more precisely, common sense. How can anyone believe in the concept of hell as punishment for sins that were already paid? I also include JWs’ who don’t believe in hell…just dying and being resurrected to life. I just want to say WTF to it all.
My point? Adam and Eve sinned against God. They were punished, several times. Ok, women have two up on men. They would grow old and die, thrown out of the garden and fend for themselves. But, women had to also endure pain during child birth and be in subjection to men. So, the whole point of hell is? According to the bible the price has already been paid?
But alas, something more still needs to be done. The great deluge. WOW! Another punishment/murder for sins. WTF? Didn’t that already happen? Nephilum (sp) was gods creation wasn’t it? Ok, so we have screw up number two on gods part…which we were suppose to pay for….again.
But wait. There’s more. We have Jesus. Who died for our sins…the second Adam….Jws’ know what I’m talking about. Didn’t we already pay the price? Obviously not. Screw up number three. ( to be honest, there are many) So what in hades, pun intended, are we to do?
An unloving, unforgivable, unjust, vengeful, murderous, jealous, egomaniac, who knows all, sees all…yet still “played” with humanity, knowing the outcome.
High fives for free thought!
July 26th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Remember that the greatest gift God gave us was freewill and the worst thing God gave us is freewill. Many of the things you state is just you thought on things. One thing I was taught is to go out and be church. This means i will not impose my religion on you but if you are willing to listen I will talk. I will also be willing to listen if you are willing to talk.
You have a generic idea about my faith. It is like saying all hispanic, Black, Asian, Native American and other races are a certain way because of their skin color. Not all christians are the same way. please don’t judge all of them the same way for not all of them judge you in the same way.
You are in-titled to use your freewill.
July 26th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
It’s always bothered me that a just and loving god would find the need to recruit at gunpoint. “Join or forever die.”
Let’s assume, for a minute, that political leaders were to recruit party members with the same tactics as god of the bible.
“Join my party and enjoy a life blessed in service to me. If you don’t, though, you’ll suffer unimaginable tortures. I’ve written the laws. They are immutable and without change. Join me and you will not suffer under them.”
Would you join under those conditions? Why would you join?
God gave us freewill, eh? Why, then, would god punish us for using that which he gave? If a parent gave a child a Frisbee, should the child be punished for pretending the Frisbee to be a flying saucer? Or a toy gun: punish the child for using the gun as a hammer? Should the child be punished for ignoring any toy gifted to her by her father?
I wouldn’t. But, then, I’m not a god, either.
August 20th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
I also find it funny that this xtian god will allow a child raping murder into heaven if they repent
but a non-beliver who managed to get through life without raping or murdering anyone goes to hell
bad god, no donut
August 22nd, 2009 at 9:39 pm
I can honestly not believe the amount of time and energy spent by you folks on this complete and utter nonsense. This will put things into perspective for you. The “Bible” that you follow was written in the middle east. Don’t you find some irony when one thinks of an American cowboy who lives by, studies and follows the writings of a book(s) written by people from the most psychotic part of the word? They are so blind that they don’t even see it. Ben is clearly one of these blind Americans and hopefully one day he will open his eyes.
Ben – enlighten me please. You state above that one has to believe in Jesus in order to be accepted in heaven. I live in Canada. About a 10 hour flight north of me live people that are called Eskimos. These people have never seen one of your Bibles nor have they heard of Jesus.
Curious – these people have never heard of Jesus or your old or new middle eastern bibles..but according to your logic if a human being does not believe in Jesus he goes to hell….I suppose all Eskimos go to hell.
Ian in Montreal, Canada
August 24th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Ben Says:
“My God is loving, but He’s also a God of laws and justice.”
“I think the problem you’re having is that you don’t like God’s definition of ‘good’ and ‘evil.’”
“…in the end, some will go to hell and some won’t. God can’t be just and hate evil if evil goes unpunished.”
But this why the God that you believe exists, is a horrible monstrosity, and you are not – no matter how much you tell yourself you are – a good person for espousing these ideas.
I have a Baha’i friend. He is strictly monogamous; he is kind to others, almost unceasingly; he does not drink, smoke, or do any drugs; he prays daily; he embodies the highest Baha’i virtue: service to humankind; he is ALWAYS (it’s like he’s not real sometimes) honest, hard-working, generous, supportive, and friendly. He hates violence, lying, and stealing. He LOVES his god. He is the best person I know, or have ever known.
But your miserable excuse for a god or saviour would see him burn, because he only believes that Jesus was a prophet, not the “Son of God.”
You are not a good person, Ben, for believing that it is acceptable for such a man to be punished at all, much less for eternity, and your god is a sick joke.
September 4th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
“You are not a good person, Ben, for believing that it is acceptable for such a man to be punished at all, much less for eternity, and your god is a sick joke.”
Signed.
September 4th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Hello again, didn’t realize there was still discussion going on here, so I’ll try to comment on some of the more recent questions.
First off, @ Michael Swanson: Again, I think the problem is that you’re trying to force your idea of good and evil upon God. Why should we get to redefine these ideas if God created them?
@Ian: Regarding Eskimos, I think my answer would be “I’m not sure” b/c I think there’s two ways you could look at it. First, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Seems like a done deal. Eskimos go to hell. However, there’s another way to look at it. There’s also something that we call “the age of accountability,” which isn’t actually defined as such in the Bible, it’s more of an idea of an age at which we become accountable for either accepting God or rejecting God. So then, if a person never hears about God, how can he accept or reject Him? Thus, they would be under God’s grace, the same way a child who is unable to make a decision one way or the other would be.
So, if I had to choose one, I’d say the latter point, because I feel it’s more consistent with God being merciful to those who are unable to make a choice.
I’ll tackle a few more questions later.
(Jacob, install that ’subscribe to comments’ plugin already!
)
September 4th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Oh, to clarify the “Age of Accountability” idea comes partially out of 2 Samuel 12:22-23, where David, having just lost a child, says, “I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” The child is in Heaven, and David says that he will go to be with the child again one day. There are a few other passages, but this is the main one.
September 4th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
“I think the problem is that you’re trying to force your idea of good and evil upon God”
I think your problem is that you’re accepting an agglomeration of writings by disparate and unrelated people, translated several times, filtered through several committees in several cultures, as truth; including the definition of good and evil, which is as arbitrary and convenient as your other banal nonsensical point:
““the age of accountability,” which isn’t actually defined as such in the Bible”
Why not write your own book of the bible with that included in it? Maybe they’ll soon have another committee to decide which books to include and which books not to. You might get lucky.
How dare you accuse someone of trying to force their view of good and evil? How can you not see the hypocrisy in accusing someone else of arbitration when you can come up with something so obviously invented for your own moral convenience?
September 25th, 2009 at 2:08 am
“Remember that the greatest gift God gave us was freewill and the worst thing God gave us is freewill.”
Uh… if we were essentially just ’stupid animals’ before we ate from the tree of knowledge, I would imagine we didn’t really have any real free will. God apparently wanted us to forever remain stupid, mindless animals. Why would he even give us freewill if he didn’t want us to do anything ‘against him’? It shows only that he has no conception of the nature of his own creations, which mean’s he’s really not omnipotent.
Moreover, if he knew everything from beginning to end, he should have seen before what would become of us and done something about it (if he’s omnipotent, he controls fate too, does he not?)
And the point is, if GOD DECIDES what is good and evil, and if HE SUPPOSEDLY LOVES EVERYONE, why on earth would he make evil at all? Why wouldn’t he just say everything is good so no one ever needs to go to hell?
And again, if he’s omnipotent, couldn’t he take back the free will he gave us if he sees things are getting out of hand?
In fact, can’t he just do something crazy to prove to everyone that he exists? Why make us suffer with the question of whether or not he does exist? Why not just make everything blatantly clear?
If it’s because he WANTS us to find our own paths, then how can he possibly be surprised or angry when someone “goes off the right path” and sins? Again, he seems not to understand whatsoever the nature of his own creations.
If he exists, it seems the only reason for confusing the shit out of people is to toy with them, and like the attention-whore he is, confuse everyone and everything while expecting them to submit to him.
In fact, what does free will even mean if people are just supposed to submit? blah.
there’s so many contradictions I cannot take it seriously at all.
And for your information, damn near everything in the Bible can be debated, INCLUDING the existence of god, or at least his exact nature. Some people think of it as some great paternal figure, some as the entirety of the cosmos (and therefore we are already part of it, for others still).
and so on, and so on
October 1st, 2009 at 4:35 am
First off, it’s a bit unfair that an all-knowing God would set humans up for failure. He knew what would happen before He created anything. He had total control over the whole situation, and yet He let humans “freely” choose to disobey Him, thereby bringing His wrath upon us. Sure, that makes sense.
What kind of sadistic, egotistical monster would create helpless critters, knowing the whole time that they would end up pissing Him off? He also created the skillful subtle talking snake and knowingly allowed the snake to trick the helpless critters into disobeying some bizarre order to not eat some stupid fruit. Why create the fruit and the snake in the first place? What’s the point except to entrap humans? Is it just so He can prove what a great and kind God He is by killing some 1st Century Jewish preacher type? After setting up the game and rigging it against us, He then has the nerve to punish the helpless critters (created for His own amusement) for a series of events that He Himself set in motion. What a bastard.
No God like that is worthy of our praise or worship, even if He did exist. If one does believe in the existence of this God, then the Gnostic view seems the correct one: the Creator God is malevolent and not deserving of our time.
A more parsimonious interpretation, however, is that the whole story is the invention of Bronze Age writers that has been edited for a few centuries to fit the sociopolitical goals of the editors and is now interpreted by modern humans as being “truthy”.
By the way, regarding the concept of “free will”: modern neuroscience, psychology, economics, et al., have demonstrated quite convincingly that we do not have “free will” in the sense that our behavior and thoughts are free from outside influences, including slick-talking snakes who happen to want us to eat certain prohibited fruits, lest we learn too much about the world.
October 6th, 2009 at 11:04 am
A more interesting point though is that most Christians do not assume that non-believers go to hell but that evil-doers do. Tehrefore Non-believers who commit no evil may go to heaven and beleivers who commit evil may go to hell. Notice I use the word “may.” This is deliberate. Most Christians would not presume they will automatically go to heaven and most Christians will not automatically presume that anyone person is in hell. Most Christians will leave it to God to sort out.
Sadly, most people believe that what the vociferous fundamental Christian teaches represents all Christians as opposed to the minority. Do your sums. Out of the, roughly, 1bn Christians, most of them belong to the Catholic, Orthodox or Anglican branches of Christianity. Yes there are harsh hypocrites in these branches but official doctrine does not presume who goes where when they die.
October 8th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Holy mother of…. You people, however passionate have too much free time.
I was raised a christian due to family and being put into catholic schools, but at 18 i believe it’s my choice this time. I consider myself agnostic until further notice for a few reasons.
@ Jacob, David, and other questioners of god (i never said atheists now did i….)
You’re right to say that if sed God is benevolent, he would not send non-believers to hell, for in his eyes they are lost or misguided – not evil doers.
@Ben – Does christianity not teach you to be loving to your fellow man, despite differences between you? And to those having ‘lost their way’ or not discovered ‘the goodness of God’ surely you should be kind and reflect the principal “Love thy neighbour” regardlessly?
Evil people = Hell
Good people = Heaven
Those who do not believe/dont know = Let them naturally pass on with no after life.
Does this not provide compromise or at least tolerance of both sides?
October 14th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
If I end up burning in eternal fire, I will really miss the snow. Do you think god would let me have a few days off every winter from eternal damnation just to go skiing?
Plus, define hell. Mine is being surrounded by christians/theists, so by their definition, their paradise is my hell. God really does work in mysterious ways, his blunders to deform.
November 9th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
“I think what upsets me the most about many Christians is their incessant need to remind non-believers that we are going to burn in eternal fire for not subscribing to their religion.”
I won’t tell you that you are going to burn in hell. I’m not your judge. God is. For all I know you are winning points with this faith-strengthening web site you have here. Your web site has in fact strengthened my faith, so I tend to think perhaps your role as an atheist on the web might be fulfilling God’s purposes in some mysterious way. The point is: Who am I to say what your judgment will be? Not all Christians judge as you assert. I wish you would not generalize and stereotype so much because there are many Christians who would be glad to have a lunch with you anytime.. myself being one of them.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:41 am
I don’t take any of “God’s” laws seriously and i question the logic of anybody that does, but since these people live to die for some magicial happy place in the clouds and praise Jesus by wearing a cross (a.k.a instrument of the worst kind of death) i guess logic really doesn’t come into it in the first place.
But let’s assume for one minute that this God vs. Devil thing really exists, the first question one must ask themselves is what has the Devil done that invokes so much wrath and anger?
Turned away from God, took angel’s with him: Check
Tempted Eve: Check
Tempted Jesus in the desert: Check
Indeed, even his name “Devil” derives from the Greek word diabolos, which means ’slanderer’ or ‘accuser’ and Satan means adversary or obstacle. So he seems to be following his role pretty well.
But what has he really done?
As far as i can tell the only real thing the Devil did that was wrong was piss off God, and we all know what happens if you do that….
Death to the first born of every household (including cattle): Check
Flood the world: Check
Wipe out a town with fire and brimstone because they’re not following your laws yet spare Lot (who offered his two daughters to the inhabitants of Sodom to protect two “angels”) and most of his family: Check
Strange that this Devil who will tourture one’s soul for all time and yet God is seen as this loving,caring being.
Yes, i know the Christians will spout out that tired and predictable line “That’s EXACTLY what the Devil want’s you to think you nasty little sinner you” But if were going by biblical “evidence” then it seems to me that God has much more to answer for than the Devil does.
November 26th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Ben: I am sure you will agree that the christian god is omnipotent, omniescent, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent. These are core tenets of the religion if I am not mistaken, I have never heard a christian state otherwise. There is a verse in the bible that states that the god knows each of us, even before we are born. And, being omniscient, the god knows whether we are going to be ’saved’ after our time on earth, otherwise he’s not omniscient. Free will goes right out the window, but worse than that, the god allows billions of humans to be born, when he knows in advance that most will not accept his religion. Therefore these people will have to be condemned to hell for eternal torture, going by the rules the god set up. They have no chance to make it into heaven, and never did. The god character is simply creating (by allowing to be born) billions of humans that he can torture later. I would say your god enjoys torturing helpless humans, but you already know that, having I’m sure read the old testament many times. You may say we have free will and will chose either to accept (H)im or not. But we have no free will in the matter, the god knows before we are born which of us (as individuals) are going to hell. A loving kind god would not allow nonchristians to be born, avoiding the question of eternal damnation and torture, and acheiving exactly the same results! There’s no free will either way. The god cannot know in advance what we are going to chose, if our choice is to have any meaning at all!
Finally, answer this. Why are you a christian and not muslim, or a hindu, or a shintoist, or rastafarian? Did you study all these other religions (that have millions or billions of other followers? Did you chose christianity as the most true of all of them? Billions have chosen other beliefs. Or is it just possible that you were raised a christian and that’s all you have ever been exposed to. If your beliefs pass the ‘test of faith’ I encourage you to study the other great religions and get back to us on why you think christianity is so true and all the others are just as obviously false.
November 27th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Does it offend you that God would send any human to hell or just you?
Do you believe in any sort of justice?
Would you condemn a serial killer or Hitler for exampmle?
If not, would you feel the same way if you had been in a concentration camp?
If so, and it merely offends you because you are being put in the same category as a more violent sinner, what is the basis for your moral decision?
If the standard is less than perfection how can it possibly be fair?
Christians evidence their “moral objection” in the fact that they approach you and have the courage to discuss their solution to the justice issue. This proves that they care about your destiny – especially in light of growing hostility. They don’t to it because it is popular or because it changes their destiny. It would be far easier to remain silent and feel selfishly happy that their eternity is more pleasantly determined.
Finally, atheistic disbelief in hell should render the entire topic mute to you. Why let it bother you at all if you are convinced it does not exist? Just travel merrily along, excusing their ignorant attempt to help you.
December 2nd, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Don’t Universalists believe that Jesus saved EVERYONE from damnation? That’s my impression anyway.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:06 am
um, Ben. You fail to see that man created God to control other men. If there was a God, which there is not, he would not be involved in little human dramas, as described in “the bible” and he would show himself to all people. We wouldn’t have to learn about him from Goat Herders 40 years after he died. Use your brain. And, quit cherry-picking scripture. Go to biblegod.org and learn the rest of your bible that you have never read.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Ben, it is actually Christians who belive the earth arose from nothing. Evolution does not follow that nor state it. We believe there is a minute chance there was some sort of god, but there has been zero evidence so far to support it. So, Scientists are still trying to figure out the origin of the universe. We may never know, but we are far closer to it than a god of any kind. I highly recommend you get the new book: God Hates You. Hate Him Back. That will debunk all your fantasies you have regarding the bible. I assume you are scared to study Atheism and that is damn sad.
December 4th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
j rep, i’ll answer those:
It bothers us that any human would be sent to hell, but it really doesn’t bother us at all because we know the bible to be false.
Yes, we believe in a just society. No one has ever had one, but the USA is one of the best so far. I can’t speak for all other countries. I know that the middle east has some of the worst.
Personally, in the case of Hitler or a serial killer, I don’t think I would kill them, that is too good for them. They need to be put on an island with all the other violent criminals. Give them some seeds and a water source and let them fend for themselves.
Yes, I would feel the same way if in a concentration camp, killing is too good for people who torture others.
Eventhough the “if so” doesn’t include me, I will answer your question on morality. Morality came about far before the bible and jesus, thus long before the 10 comandments. Humans, like any other animal, have to survive by not destroying their species. It is innate in all animals. with humans, they have consciousness, so they can actually learn morals too beyond the scope of simple survival. With this consciousness also comes empathy, which is the ability to feel what other humans feel, thus not harming them. as with any species, we have aberrant behaviors, like psychopaths, who will do harm. But the majority have inherent survival accompanied with a brain that evolves and learns technology and has the need to help other humans.
Perfection is a concept made by man, man’s reality. It means having no flaws. It is a relative term, what is flaws to some is not to others and vice versa. But, humans only need to concern themselves with perfection if they are trying to impress a mate to mate with, to cure diseases, perhaps trying to win at a sport, gather food, provide shelter, those sorts of things.
Christians approaching us and discussing things does not prove they care about our destiny, it proves they care about their own. They are the insecure ones. Atheists already know there is no hell, based on evidence. Humans are stuck with “the human condition”, that is living a short time and dying. They are the only species who is aware of this and thus don’t like it. I don’t blame them, I don’t like it either. Some dislike it so much that they are willing to believe anything indoctrinated into their brains that tells them they will live forever. The sad part is that this is done to children. Interestingly, children are not predisposed to believe in a god. Liek the easter bunny, they will drop their beliefs before adulthood. The sad problem is, adults have perpetuated the god myth and impose that on society and young adults. They don’t allow the children the luxury of letting nature take it’s course.
You feel the entire topic of hell should be moot to Atheists because they don’t believe in it. Well, I don’t believe in humans being raped or tortured either, but it isn’t moot to me. Your logic doesn’t pan out. Furthermore, Atheists care about the indoctrination of children with religion. It makes it more difficult to live in the natural real world when we have religious dogma being spouted. Some religions are more harmful, like radical Muslims use. But how can we say you can’t be Muslim, but we can be Christian. If you look at the bible, especially the old testament, you’ll see God telling us to murder people, that rape is good, slavery is good, killing animals for sacrifice is good, etc…. So, we have no preference of one religion over the other. All religion is equally oppressive and to have none at all is a better solution than trying to pick the least oppressive and horrid ones to go by. Science has given us the only answers about our surroundings that we have. The species will do far better running the earth with Science than believing in ancient gods and folklore from Goat Herders. Lastly, jesus was not the first god of his kind. he was preceded by Horus and many other gods who had very similar characteristics. In fact, Horus’s story is almost verbatim that of the jesus story. So, you don’t even have an original story, it was copied from many other gods before it. That should speak volumes as to your god and bible. And, the fact that most of the people of the earth have never heard of Jesus and/or are another religion because of where they were born, should also speak volumes about your so-called “god”.
December 4th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
It’s really very simple, gods are imaginary, hell and heaven are imaginary.
So don’t worry about it. People like Ben have been brainwashed since they were born and of course they will believe this religious crap. We are in the century of enlightenment, lets not let delusional people like Ben, Mike Hucabee, Pat Robertson, et al into government and let’s just keep them where they can’t spoil our day.
December 4th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
great point!
December 5th, 2009 at 3:06 am
@Ben, I’m really impressed that you have managed to survive that onslaught brought by these people. the thing I wasnt impressed on was how many had to resort to childish name calling. So I apologize to you for that. I commend you though, Sticking up for what you believe in-this day and age is not an easy task.( someone needs to shed some light on this dreary topic)
December 13th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
I’ve read through all the comments and come to the conclusion that it just seems stupid. Christians who believe in Hell: Are you afraid of the Muslim Hell? Are you afraid of being reincarnated and denied of reaching 7th heaven? Then you understand why atheists aren’t afraid of yours. Why? Because they’re petty threats.
@Asmodae: Childish name calling may be the case, but I think most here agree that it is vastly outweighed by the arguments made on your end. I am not impressed with how many of your blind belief system have to resort to death-threats. That seems even more childish than name-calling if you ask me. I can remember learning in preschool that it’s nice to be inclusive and that some people won’t agree with what you say. I also learned that if you tell someone something that you’re as sure as most Christians are they have never truly considered, it’s irresponsible to expect that you can try to present your beliefs to them with no proof whatsoever besides having “the faith of a child,” which is a very simplistic way of saying “I know my argument is shit so just don’t think about it and you’ll always believe.” Secondly, it would seem to me that when your religious organization dominates the country you live in by 83%, you’re not having a hard time sticking up for what you believe in this day and age (where parents stick up for god by denying healthcare to their children in place of prayer and the children die of trivial diseases). I’m sorry, no offense, but Christians, get the hell over yourselves. Seriously, it seems like you all have this “persecution complex” that makes you call anyone who doesn’t want to believe fantastical stories “with the eyes of a child” (the same naive eyes by which hundreds of women were killed and tortured during the salem witch trials) an opponent to you. I guess the point I’m trying to make is that nobody on your end of things is shedding light, and in my own subjective opinion, it’s much, much drearier to try and confirm without evidence that everyone who doesn’t agree with you are going to be tortured.
December 20th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Jeremy, JC and Torrie…you said it all. I cannot agree with you more.
@Ben and Mark. I have a question for you Ben. I do understand what are you going through and also your strong believes. I really do. i do understand the feeling of guilt that you have from time to time when you think “Oh shit, he’s got a point. What if he is right?” and than think “No it cannot be true, tihs is not right…it’s against my religion, against my beliefs” We can’t force you to believe otherwise my friend. Please tell me that you didn’t ask those questions your self. I lived in a family with strong believes in Church and God and I never dare questioning them but from the moment I moved out and understand people from a different perspective, (university) I realised that we’re all different. Please don’t read this aritcle and think that I am full of it. Leave behind your believes, your ideas and your God and ask your self(if you haven’t done that already) “What if?…” Bible cannot explain everything and rejecting any other explanations makes it plain stupid. Do not act like the guys back in the days that thought that rain comes from gods of whatever. Even if you’d explain them they would not accept your point. Be open, have a free will to choose your own beliefs, stand up for your self and say something. Leaving in fear of something that you’re not certain is just silly.
Each one of us chooses to believe what we want pal, be one of them. Please understand that even coming on this website shows us that you believe but you don’t want to believe, you try to find excuses.
For all of you who come and write or read this blog to “strenghten their faith” I have few questions: Why would you bother? You don’t trust your self? You don’t have faith at all? Is your faith diminishing each day and you come here to make it stronger? Are you testing your religion? Why would you do that anyway if you’re such a believer?
Be your self, belive in your own strenghts and in what you can do with your life. Stop passing on the responsibility to someone else.
Thanks
December 20th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
@Ben, I’m really impressed that you have managed to survive that onslaught brought by these people. the thing I wasnt impressed on was how many had to resort to childish name calling. So I apologize to you for that. I commend you though, Sticking up for what you believe in-this day and age is not an easy task.( someone needs to shed some light on this dreary topic)</i
Obstinacy in hypocrisy doesn’t exonerate the hypocrisy… He’s still a blatant sophist and a complete idiot.
January 11th, 2010 at 8:56 am
Averre wrote
[quote]Finally, answer this. Why are you a christian and not muslim, or a hindu, or a shintoist, or rastafarian? Did you study all these other religions (that have millions or billions of other followers? Did you chose christianity as the most true of all of them? Billions have chosen other beliefs. Or is it just possible that you were raised a christian and that’s all you have ever been exposed to. If your beliefs pass the ‘test of faith’ I encourage you to study the other great religions and get back to us on why you think christianity is so true and all the others are just as obviously false.[/quote]
Averre, I disagree with you. Only a very few people choose their religion. Why else do you think 99% of muslims were born, from muslim parents, 99% of christians were born from christians parents etc etc? For the very simple reason that once born in a family that has a certain faith, your whole upbrining will be in that faith. Your neighbours belief the wame thing, your teachers teach you the same holy book (Bible, Quran, Talmud). When your parents bring you to the church/mosque/ synagoge, you are again teached the same way of viewing. So it is no choice. It is the result of some very continuous and persistent indoctrination.
January 13th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
@Ben: As as new former-christian, I truly hope you wake up from this delusion. I believed it strongly for the past two decades. The main thing in this world which can destroy it is religion – all regions.
The two main religions; christian and islam, both want/hope/plan to bring about the end of this world. Christians want to preach to all the earth so that the ‘end’ will come and rebuild the temple. To put it mildly, christians want to see the death of 4-5 billions human beings in order that they can go be with their god. …and they’re giddy about it.
Muslims want to create a world war in order to usher in their 12th imam. This religion now has the fire power to create a world war and murder billions of human beings.
All religion is 100% bad for humanity. We have walked on this earth for at least 150,000 years. We now have the ability, knowledge and technology to make the world a better place. Only theists, such as yourself, are the main threat to the extinction of our species.
christianity is worthless and evil. I was duped for far too long. And I threw away a ton of money by giving it to churches. My life would have been much better with more money and with fewer regrets without religion. I detest christianity now because of the harm it causes its followers and the rest of the world.
I was stupid for actually believing in the biblical stories of: talking snakes, a global flood, the supernatural, humans only here for 6,000 years, zombies, genocide, incest, slavery, murdering your own children, etc., etc., etc.
Wake up dude. There are no gods anywhere.
January 13th, 2010 at 8:02 pm
“Science hasn’t given a good answer for my questions about the origins of the universe, the origins of life, the meaning of life, etc. Therefore, I’m forced to look elsewhere.”
That wraps it up in a nutshell right there. The difference between an atheist and a theist is simply fear and stupidity. Some people just can’t accept/comprehend that we don’t know all the answers yet. The thought that this is the only existence we will ever experience and that we don’t know what the fuck it is scares the shit out of them.
The human race will hopefully get there one day. In the very very distant future we may evolve enough intelligence to answer these questions. In the mean time just chill the fuck out and enjoy.
January 15th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
ben i have just one thing to say to you. Good job.
in response to “christians and islamsics can’t wait for the world to self destruct, why? because we want a world with MORALS! not this world full of corruption and immorality! do you know how morals even came about! no you don’t, but i do. and if you ask NICELY i will give you the evidence.
January 30th, 2010 at 4:35 am
I think the point of this article is to make this simple point
A being who has the power to make the universe any way they desire and can see into the future, but choose to make one.
1.in which good people suffer.
2.It’s creations live in constant fear and confusion because this being refuses to clearly spell out to everyone what it wants and the rules it’s decided beyond a shadow of a doubt to such an extent many different religions exist all equally valid.
3.Creates diseases to randomly kill innocent children and allows natural disasters to randomly kill millions.
4.Creates and allows to live an magical evil being simply to make life even harder for the humans it created, while punishing people for actions it knew were going to happen (can see into the future) rather than preventing evil.
This is what you have to believe to be christian, and to worship such a clearly purely evil god is not justified by the fact it is powerful.
This is despicable, you may as well worship any serial killer you care to name and do things because this serial killer told you too like a christian tool.
January 30th, 2010 at 11:03 pm
our God gave us a Choice, so he could love us more, if we couldn’t choose, were no better then robots. diseases and natural disasters is what we get when we reject a loving God for some powerless rebel who hates our guts and wants us to go to hell.
read “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:34 am
An all powerful being chooses to have innocent children die of disease (no choice for them) and this is justified by “free will”?
Now that is funny
February 8th, 2010 at 11:28 pm
Ben & creationist -
Hey guys, guess what? Its Jesus! Yes, I’m back! Oh what, you don’t believe me?? Well, you know what that means… Yep, you’re going to hell where you will suck Beezlebub’s ball sack forever and ever. Sorry kids, that’s the breaks! Hey, what can I say? I work in mysterious and unprovable ways.
February 14th, 2010 at 4:51 am
I think the concepts of both eternal punishment and reward are both demonstrably false because, while purportedly equally opposite: God’s presence and eternal love versus God’s abscence and eternal punishment, wouldn’t they really be equally abhorrent? Wouldn’t an eternity of punishment eventually become banal? Wouldn’t an eternity of bliss become equally bland? Grow up, religionists: we’ve enough of our fellow human beings to love and to combat, each as necessary. We can triumph by solving real problems, or fail because we’ve been blinded by fairy tales, and inconsistent ones at that.
February 18th, 2010 at 7:25 pm
Creationist – just a quick description of you …it might get nasty but hey ..that is you or that’s how I see you.
You are a male, probably in your 40’s that is frustrated that his life has not turned out in the way he dreamed when you were a kid. You see things, you don’t think too much and tend to answer everything through the prism of religion. Using a name like this, reveals to me that you suffer of a superiority complex. Your style of education is very abrupt and take decision without any explanation. You are always right and get quite upset if someone disagree with you. Furthermore, you have doubts (your presence and sometimes your comments) and sometimes you need to come here to strenghten your faith. You look around my friend and realise that you could do whatever you like in life and live it the way you’ve always wanted.
“in response to “christians and islamsics can’t wait for the world to self destruct, why? because we want a world with MORALS! not this world full of corruption and immorality! do you know how morals even came about! no you don’t, but i do. and if you ask NICELY i will give you the evidence.”
Even using a name like this is just plain stupid. By the way, do you have the “evidence” of God’s existence? Yes, No, maybe? Well I know..YOU DON”T. so sit down and I will nicely ask you to fuck off.
I am sick and tired of your stupid answers. Be concise, clear and leave the “enigmatic comments” (see above) at home. Why the fuck are you even making any comments on an atheist website?. You think God will see you and give you an extra perk in heaven or some shit? Are you trying to convert us all, what do you want? Ask your self: what do I want?, do I really belive what I am saying or is just because you were indoctrinated with stupid ideas since you were a kid. WHAT DO YOU REALLY WANT???
What scares me mate, is that idiots like you and some other christians or muslims or whatever will do some stupid thing, thinking is God talked to them and told them to kill innocent people because the world is full of “corruption and immorality”. Wake the fuck up. See the half full not the half empty. There are so many other things out there that are nice and good.
Guys, please make sure that individuals like this don’t make it in power, otherwise we’re all fucked.
Creationist, sorry to say that “Now fuck off” – Snatch movie (Guy Ritchie)
and wake up (that was me and probably all people that come to this site from other reasons than you)
March 17th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
I am a VERY spiritual person, but I AGREE WITH the Good Atheist here … even at the risk of coming across arrogant or condescending, which tends to happen in print. ;^( Generally speaking, when I come across Christians or heck, almost group completely devoted to their organized religion I very often encounter one or more people who want to convert me – or they end up angry with me if they can’t. Yikes, here we go again! I DO NOT CARE what they believe – I’m cool with it if they find peace and comfort in their beliefs and it helps them live a better life. I see pretty much the same basic message in every religion, even if I REALLY DISAGREE with how they interpret it most of the time. HOWEVER, they rarely afford me the same courtesy.
The fact is that no one can prove anything beyond our own existance, but I like the mystery and intrinsic intelligence of the universe. Here’s the arrogant part … I do believe I have come to an understanding of things (enlightenment, if you will) … okay, give me a break … but, really I say live and let live. From the process I’ve been through I can say, from my perspective and understanding, that NO ONE IS GOING TO HELL!!!
We learn in school that energy can be re-directed, but it can’t be destroyed. It is undeniable that we have a “life spark” within us. When we die, that goes somewhere … I have my ideas about that, but I won’t bother you with it. So, the basic purpose of suffering is to turn inward and know who we are – know thyself. If we didn’t suffer we would never do that … we’d party all the time and never learn anything. I know I would. Sin is simply the state of not knowing and not knowing causes us to do some really bad stuff to each other … mainly, because we think “our spark” is different from their “their spark”, okay so I couldn’t avoid it … like the Native Americans, Buddhist, and others I believe we are all one spark on the other end … so what I do to you, if I have any sense at all, make me feel bad because I’m doing it to myself too (karma).
Well, this is more than you wanted to know … except, I REALLY DO WISH Christians would get over theirselves … Jesus was a Jew, a Rabi, and a Kabbalist … he was the messenger to tell us to Know Ourselves and when we do we’ll be like he is …. he was the begotten son because he knew who he was from the very beginning. He’s not the only messenger in history, there are about 18 accounts of virgin births in history, which really has more to do with a metaphor of the moon cycle than anyting else. Why can’t we all just get along?